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When you empower dictators, that's what they do. This is caught up in all of the repression because the more dictators are empowered, the more they feel that their legitimacy is beyond question, the more repressive they become. This is very important for dictators in general, but especially for MBS, being a young, dynamic prince who is actually not very experienced and doesn't know a lot about the world.
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It is very important to him to present himself as a reformer, to present himself as someone who has a positive vision for his country and who is making positive changes. Why is that important to you?ĮL-BAGHDADI: Well, just like all dictators, Mohammed bin Salman is actually very aware of his legitimacy deficit.
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SHAPIRO: You've been very clear that you're trying to shine an unflattering light on Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The forensic report really was kind of the final nail in the coffin that actually showed us that not only did they have the motivation, but they also had the means.
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This became a problem for Mohammed bin Salman.
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You have Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi writing article after article calling for more openness, calling for free speech and calling for less repression in his native country. What makes you certain that this investigation is accurate?ĮL-BAGHDADI: Well, a few things - first of all, this was all about The Washington Post. But also, it's crazy to actually lure a journalist to your own consulate and then kill him and dismember his body. Unfortunately, with Mohammed bin Salman, we're not dealing with a rational actor. And after that, it became really a matter of revenge, really, a matter of punishing him. SHAPIRO: What did Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman have to gain from this hack and subsequent blackmail of Jeff Bezos?ĮL-BAGHDADI: Well, apparently, initially, it seems to have been an attempt to pressure him to curb The Washington Post's coverage. And we started coordinating back-and-forth to actually get to the bottom of this. And two days later, we were contacted by Gavin de Becker, who was tasked by Jeff Bezos to actually investigate what happened. Is that right?ĮL-BAGHDADI: Well, that's when we put out whatever information we had about the disinformation attacks. SHAPIRO: And at that point, I understand you started working with Jeff Bezos' security team. I actually did not put two and two together until Jeff Bezos, about a month later, revealed that he's being blackmailed. SHAPIRO: And was that a light bulb moment for you?ĮL-BAGHDADI: Well, honestly, I did not notice it then. And what did those Saudi disinformation outlets start to say?ĮL-BAGHDADI: So there - we see activity then essentially saying he had it coming, kind of saying this is what happens to those who stand against Saudi Arabia. SHAPIRO: So these Saudi disinformation networks are attacking Jeff Bezos for The Washington Post coverage, and then the National Enquirer reveals that Jeff Bezos is having an affair. SHAPIRO: Their coverage of the Khashoggi killing.ĮL-BAGHDADI: Their coverage of the Khashoggi killing. And we noticed in October and November, after the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, that there is a concentrated campaign against Jeff Bezos, really also tying to The Washington Post and calling for a boycott of based upon The Washington Post's reporting. Tell us about what you saw.ĮL-BAGHDADI: Well, my little team actually does a lot of monitoring of Saudi disinformation networks and what the propaganda output that they put out over there is. SHAPIRO: I understand your first hint that the Saudis were out to get Jeff Bezos came from your monitoring of social media. He was friends with Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, who was killed at a Saudi Consulate in 2018, the same year Bezos' phone was hacked.Įl-Baghdadi joins us now from Norway, where he lives. Iyad el-Baghdadi has been a critic and a target of the Saudi regime. Now we're going to talk with one of the men at the center of the investigation. investigation revealed that the Saudi crown prince was likely behind the hacking of Jeff Bezos' phone.